Workflow answers needed!

[Ivywoodstudios]

Hi yet again.

i really need some help establishing a workflow that well, quite frankly works lol. at least for what i need.

im shooting a short film, its quite complex, and i want to previs an animatic either with or without tweens. but im having major difficulty when i need to add things or adjust things later on that i didnt know i needed at the time. this is all to do with virtual cameras.

here is an example

Two characters talking in a field.

I create the first pose, for each of them. create two virtual cameras and have them over the shoulder of each actor.
i snap the first shot, then i create a second pose for each and snap the next shot. and repeat until i have a whole basic gestured conversation.
but wait, i didnt realise that i need to add a master in, or a wide shot where both characters are shown side on. i now have maybe 8/15 different pose shots without this camera.
because i did not add this camera into the beggining pose layout. i now have to add it to EACH shot!
i have yet to find a way to percolate a virtual camera that i add later on.

all i want to do, is go to the first shot. add my new camera, and then tell it to remain their for the shots that its needed for. as of yet, i dont believe this option is available.

here is another example, i create a framing i like, snap a shot, move to the next pose, keeping the camera locked and just changing the pose of the character, until i realise that the actor moves off frame of this 'locked' shot i was picturing, so i realise that i need to adjust the cameras position slightly to compensate for this movement in later shots.......... this also is not possible. as i would load the first shot, then snap it with the adjusted camera, then i would have to a, load the next shot, re adjust the camera, and snap again. or b, recreate the poses with this new adjusted camera. this is far to time consuming.

this feels like to me that i have to either know exactly what i want for each shot. or recreate it as i want to adjust it.

now i think its possible to use physical cameras & maybe i can percolate them. but i dont want to have the restrictions/worries of the physical set when im trying to be creative.

In a normal animation program, i would, build a set, block the camera position & actors movements. then use curves, dopesheets etc to move keyframes etc to get the right movement,
im not expecting anything near the same capabilities as an animation program, but i cant see how to visualise my film, how to test out composition, framing, camera moves, blocking, etc. without the ability to 'adjust' as i go. i need to add a camera later down the line, and be able to have that camera appear in the shots where i had neglected to add it. ideally i would like to be able to add a camera in pose 15 then have it percolate for x number of shots until i 'know' i dont nneed it anymore, then simply delete it from shot, say 18, and it goes from rest? but even being able to add a camera partway through, or even if i had to go to the very first shot and add this camera into all the future shots, i would rather that.

this for me is a real problem. i cant seem to find a solution to this workflow issue.

so im hoping to get some good advice from other users who have used frameforge for their previs, or from the creators, who can help me see how it was intended to be used.

am i missing something? i would be really happy if im missing something about this program, a feature or way of working that enables this kind of adjustments. but from shot to shot, i need to be able to grab a camera, move it over here. then percolate that camera through the rest.

maybe there is a way to break up your story board/animatic to be really easy to manage? or something, please, because i feel that frameforge is a fantastic program, but may not be able to offer the speedy previs i would like to achieve for my projects.

thanks for any assistance,
Josh

[Innoventive Software, LLC]

Dear Josh:

Thanks for your clear and constructive explanation of your problem.

There are several potential solutions, but the easiest of which is to simply use a physical camera as if it were a virtual camera. Basically, if you don't put a physical camera on any support -- such as a crane, tripod, etc. -- then it can function exactly like a virtual camera: when you crane up, it just floats up into the air without limitation, and once floating, does not collide with anything either.

To percolate a physical camera, simply go to the first frame where it exists, go into a blueprint view or any view OTHER than that camera, select just that camera (which you can do on the Select Tab if needed) and then go to OBJECT -> PERCOLATE -> CURRENT OBJECTS STATE INTO SHOTS (ADD IF NOT PRESENT), then on the dialog that appears you MUST check the final box IN ADDITION TO PERCOLATING THE OBJECT'S STATE, ALSO PERCOLATE ITS POSITION (location & orientation on set).

I hope this helps!

[Ivywoodstudios]

YEs it does!

thank you! now i feel stupid, because i havent tried it myself. and i was really worrying lol

thats exactly what i was looking for. although it means that i will have to change my virtuals into physicals. which is also fine. although it poses another question.

is it possible to paste the virtual camera's orientation, rotation, tilt etc into a physical camera?

Josh

again. thank you so much for your fast support, and sorry if i sounded ungrateful for allt he hard work you all put in. this program is brilliant. thank you.

[Innoventive Software, LLC]

YEs it does!

thank you! now i feel stupid, because i havent tried it myself. and i was really worrying lol

thats exactly what i was looking for. although it means that i will have to change my virtuals into physicals. which is also fine. although it poses another question.

is it possible to paste the virtual camera's orientation, rotation, tilt etc into a physical camera?

Josh

again. thank you so much for your fast support, and sorry if i sounded ungrateful for allt he hard work you all put in. this program is brilliant. thank you.

Although I'd need to check it, I BELIEVE you can simply select both a virtual camera and a physical camera and swap them, which should do what you want.

And you did not come off as unappreciative or complaining--you gave a very clear explanation as to what your issue was and why it was a problem for you in a very professional manner; what else could we ask for?

[Ivywoodstudios]

Great, im glad i didnt sound bad. and yes that is exactly what i was looking for in terms of swapping cameras.

yet again, thanks for the reply and swift support. it says alot about this company.

WHile im here, do you have a recommended workflow for creating animatics(no tweens yet, just transitional storyboarding?) at the moment im just taking shots of all my poses, not really worrying to much about about lens choice or framing unless im just experimenting. but my plan was to get all of the poses dow, then start at the beginning and frame/re-frame my characters from my chosen locations adding/deleting cameras as i went. (which is why i panicked when i thought i had to reposition every camera for every pose.)
working on lighting & dof as i go. pretty much following the real world procedure of film making, which i really like about this program.

Also, is there anyway to 'store' shots taken in the storymanager? so i take a shot, but im not sure if i want it or not, as im kind of editing on the fly with the manager, is there a 'bin' or folder i can put shots in that dont show up on the timeline? so if i decide that i like the pose from a different angle, i dont have to reload the pose and retake it from that other angle? although this is not really a big deal. as i just have to get used to using the software.

and finally, i havent looked yet, but is there anyway to export these files as an image sequence? that could be dragged into any NLE or compositor? like premier, final cut, AE, blender, nuke, etc? where i can add title scenes, transitions? usually a sequencially named sequence of jpgs/png images would do the trick,

thanks for your help.

Josh

[Innoventive Software, LLC]

Great, im glad i didnt sound bad. and yes that is exactly what i was looking for in terms of swapping cameras.

yet again, thanks for the reply and swift support. it says alot about this company.

We try!

Do you have a recommended workflow for creating animatics(no tweens yet, just transitional storyboarding?) at the moment im just taking shots of all my poses, not really worrying to much about about lens choice or framing unless im just experimenting. but my plan was to get all of the poses now, then start at the beginning and frame/re-frame my characters from my chosen locations adding/deleting cameras as i went. (which is why i panicked when i thought i had to reposition every camera for every pose.) working on lighting & dof as i go. pretty much following the real world procedure of film making, which i really like about this program.

That seems like a quite reasonable way of doing it, basically a blocking first, framing second approach. It should work fine.

Also, is there anyway to 'store' shots taken in the storymanager? so i take a shot, but i'm not sure if i want it or not, as i'm kind of editing on the fly with the manager, is there a 'bin' or folder i can put shots in that don't show up on the timeline? so if i decide that i like the pose from a different angle, i don't have to reload the pose and retake it from that other angle? although this is not really a big deal. as i just have to get used to using the software.

No, not per se, though when you delete a shot it isn't TRULY deleted, just flagged as deleted so you can always go back and show deleted shots and restore them later, if desired. Not exactly what you wanted, but it might help.

I haven't looked yet, but is there anyway to export these files as an image sequence? that could be dragged into any NLE or compositor? like premier, final cut, AE, blender, nuke, etc? where i can add title scenes, transitions? usually a sequencially named sequence of jpgs/png images would do the trick.

Of course! Just go to FILE-EXPORT and choose either images or movies and can either export it as a sequentially numbered series of JPEGS (at any resolution up to full HD) or as a QuickTime or AVI movie.

[jamesw]

Another thought on your request for a "storage bin" for shots you're not sure you want: You can copy shots from one previz file to another using File > Import... > Shots from Storyboard. So you could make a new previz file, set it to the same film/video frame size, and use that as your storage bin.

[Banksyde]

Funny, Stuart Voytilla and I were just talking about this very issue. Stuart is the sales guy for Innoventive. I've been going over with him how I use FF.

Over the past couple years I've developed a workflow that works for me and most of my clients. Its a combination of 2D storyboarding and on-set operations. I'll summarize it the best I can.

1. Do a very rough layout of the sets such as blocks for buildings and half domes for hills.
2. Block the action. I believe there are two approaches to blocking; cinematic and theatrical. I generally recommend theatrical blocking as it an easier concept to grasp. It is a little hard to do this without showing pictures, but I'll try my best. When doing this type of blocking, first determine the location of the master shot. Always try to get as much diagonal movement across screen as possible. Then figure out the coverage; in other words, the singles, or over the shoulders for the actor contact bits. Its hard to describe, but I use an imaginary triangle for this type of blocking.
3. Place the camera for each shot and capture a frame. Usually, I do this in the order you would shoot it, not in the script order. I don't bother with posing at this point, as I'm going for speed. You have to remember that the average feature has 1200 to 1500 shots. It can take up to eight weeks to render an entire feature.
4. Review the shot manager and edit. Just like writing, the more you rewrite, the better your script. The more you edit your previs, the better the film.
5. Depending on the project I'll go through two more levels of detail; roughs and presentation. At the rough level, I will detail the poses and the sets. Only at the presentation level do I bother with the lighting and animation.

Actually, I don't like using animation early on as I find it distracting. I find that many filmmakers often make cinematic mistakes because they are too caught up watching their movies move. The whole point of previs is to make the best choices in blocking and coverage. Thus animation can be distracting. Nonetheless, animation is helpful for complex action sequences, and especially for S3D.

Anyway, that's my two cents on the workflow issue.